PeeKoo
Tibi gratias agio, Peekoo 75.178.188.251
Declension of Finnish Place names
+/-Hi PeeKoo! I've been looking around Victionarium for a while and saw that you have been doing a lot about Finnish prefixes, suffixes, words etc. I have come across a problem in the Latin Wikipedia declining Place names in Finland. We currently have this table:
| Finnice | IPA | Latine | Exemplum |
|---|---|---|---|
| -o | -ɔ | -o, -onis | Hanko (-onis) |
| -a | -ɑ | -a, -ae | Forssa (-ae) |
| -aa | -ɑː | -aa, -aae | Akaa |
| -ä → -a | -æ | -a, -ae | Mäntsälä → Mäntsala (-ae) (sine harmonia vocalis) |
| -ää → -aa | -æː | -aa, -aae | Hyvinkää → Hyvinkaa (-aae) (sine harmonia vocalis) |
| -i | -i | -i, -is | Anjalankoski (-is) |
| -en | -ɛn | -en, -enis | Kaskinen (-enis) |
| -es | -ɛs | -es, -esii | Närpes (-esii) |
| -as | -ɑs | -as, -ae | Pargas (-ae) |
| -äs | -æs | -äs, -äsii |
It is based on Kalevala Latina, with a little help from some other usors. However, Kalevala also uses -o, -is (so it could be Hanko, Hankis) Firstly, do you agree with the rules of the table, and secondly, do you know of any other tables which have the same purpose as this? --Harrissimo 19:55, 30 Iulii 2007 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, my knowledge of Latin is very basic, so I can't give expert's advise on the subject. One possible solution for difficult names is not declining the name at all but using an auxiliary word for inflection: "history of Mäntsälä" would be "historia muncipii Mäntsälä" etc.
- One thing that confuses me is -en -enis. In the article on w:Kalevala the declination is eg. Ilmarinen : Ilmarinis (-nen -nis, not -en -enis). The same method of declination is used in an excerpt from the book.
- Akaa is Acas in Latin. Sorry, I don't know of sources on declining Finnish names. I hope you find the information you need. --PeeKoo 17:49, 31 Iulii 2007 (UTC)
- Do you know which source Acas is from? --Harrissimo 22:53, 4 Novembris 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry! I must be losing my eyesight :S --Harrissimo 22:54, 4 Novembris 2007 (UTC)
- The original bit as Iustinus quoted me from the Kalevala author just had these four rules, which the author claimed to be usual among Finnish Latinists:
- Finnice -o → Latine -o, -onis
- Finnice -a → Latine -a, -ae
- Finnice -i → Latine -i, -is
- Finnice -en → Latine -en, -is
- Everything else has been invented by Wikipedia people since then, by people who may or may not know any better (actually Harrissimo is the only person who's edited that table, but I think it was with material from discussions on other pages). —Mucius Tever 02:14, 1 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
- It's OK now. Another user who possesses Kalevala has managed to help us complete the table (he came to the same conclusion as you about -en → -inis). Kiitos for all your help :) --Harrissimo 17:41, 1 Augusti 2007 (UTC)
rup
+/-I noticed you changed {{rup}} to [[Victionarium:Lingua Aromanica|Aromanice]]... while I can appreciate replacing an empty template with text, it might be better to put that in the template itself—in chief because it will make things easier should we have to change it. Google does not appear to uncover any authority for *Aromanic|us, -a, -um, and (for what it's worth) none of the Romance languages appear to use this stem—rup itself seems to use a formation in -iscus (cf: Romaniscus). While it's not a bad formation itself, there may be a traditional term to replacing it with in the future, on the occasion we find one. —Mucius Tever 01:38, 11 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
- When {{roa-rup}} and {{rup}} appeared on a page, I tried to find out the language name, which was difficult. Having eventually discovered the language, I wasn't completely sure whether the code rup was the correct code (there is, for example, roa-rup:). Therefore I didn't create a template, but now that I think of it, I should have.
- When I translated the language name into Latin, I trusted Wikipedia which has an article on w:Lingua Aromanica. --PeeKoo 16:49, 11 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah, Wikipedia are the same people as us, so if they don't have a source, we don't have a source (and I notice that the last person who edited that page moved it from Lingua Macedoromanica with the comment that 'Macedoromanica is the name of a place, not a people,' which has nothing to do with whether it's the name of a language).
- As for roa-rup, that seems to be a compromise based on how they prefer ISO 639-2... we shouldn't have to resort to that kind of thing here, except in the case of languages which don't even appear in ISO 639-3. (I believe we have a couple of words in Darkinjung, which fits that description, and I'm pretty sure the way it's currently handled is not the best way to go.)
- A hint when trying to find a language by its code: try googling for it at ethnologue (ethnologue rup). It's a lot harder to find a standard code with a language name though (Aromanian is pretty easy to recognize, even in Latinized form, but I think we still have a word or two marked as 'Franconice,' e.g. at tu, which could be any of several languages). —Mucius Tever 00:27, 13 Septembris 2007 (UTC)
Numbering translations
+/-Like at the English wiktionary, it's better not to refer to sense numbers in translations. (The numbering is too volatile; if senses get rewritten or reordered the whole translation list may need to be corrected.) At Victionarium:Exemplum#Translationes I suggested that a short gloss (the genus proximum, if there is one) would be a better choice; it could stay useful even if the original sense is drastically modified. —Mucius Tever 01:46, 22 Iulii 2008 (UTC)
- OK, I was wondering if there were instructions on that... New articles with numbered translations are constantly written here, though; ebur, for example. --PeeKoo 15:36, 22 Iulii 2008 (UTC)
- Ehh, well then, we just have a couple more people to educate then :\ —Mucius Tever 02:01, 23 Iulii 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry, I just read this discussion. I'll try and change the translations of the recently created pages. I'll also inform EncycloPetey. --Abmf 15:08, 23 Iulii 2008 (UTC)
- I still do most of my work following examples on other pages. If there are good "model" pages set up showing how major issues are handled, then I can follow those easily enough. Pages like os and manus would make good choices, as both words are common and os makes use of more than one etymology. --EncycloPetey 18:38, 23 Iulii 2008 (UTC)